Rayon vs. Poly thread?

[MJ]

Hi all!
I had a Bravo machine but I just traded it in and now have a new Amaya XTS. I've been embroidering just some regular size satin stitched letters and I keep getting upper thread breakage when using a rayon thread. I do the same exact thing (same item, same needle, etc.) with a poly thread, and it stitches fine. I've been embroidering for years on a Brother PR-620 and I've never come across breakage just because it's rayon thread. Is there something I should adjust to compensate for using rayon over polyester? I know rayon is not as strong as poly and shreads easier, but I don't know how to compensate for this on the XTS. Appreciate any input.

[edr]

I've been embroidering with Madeira Rayon Thread on an Amaya XT with no problems. Try loosening your bobbin tension. My bobbin tension is looser than what the Amaya technician set it at. I changed it back after he left. This allows me to embroider with all types of threads, including Madeira Rayon 40 wt., Isacord 40 wt., Mettler Metrosene Plus, Superior King Tut 24 wt., Superior Perfect Quilter 17 wt., Valdani Cotton 50 wt., YLI Cotton Quilt 24 wt. threads.

Cheers,
Ed "Kanga" Roux

[MJ]

Hi Ed!
Thanks! I thought that things went better when I loosened the bobbin tension! I'll try the rayon again and loosen it even some more. Just curious what you use -- what type of bobbins do you generally use? I have cardboard sided, plastic sided, and magnetic with no sides, and I'm trying to see which works better.
Thanks again!
MJ, Everything Embroidered

[edr]

Hi MJ,

I loosen the bobbin tension almost to the point where I would get false bobbin break messages from Amaya OS. This allows me to use all these thread types including Isacord with little or no thread breaks, at up to 1,500 spm. I didn't buy my Amaya XT to use only one type of thread! Let Amaya's OS adjust the top tension automatically (one reason I chose Amaya XT over the other brands). My technician could not believe that I was using all these types of threads on my Amaya XT until he saw what I was doing.

Because Melco recommended it for the Amaya, I used to use Coats Trusew V15 cardboard sided bobbins, but then I would remove the cardboard side that goes into the bobbin case to minimize the gunk residue that it would deposit under the tension plate. I'd still have to get a business card and slide some gunk from under the tension plate from time to time.

So when my Coats bobbins ran out, I almost ordered another box but thought I'd give the Allstitch cardboard sided bobbins a try at less than half the price http://www.allstitch.net/product/all...white-1245.cfm. They have 7 yards less of thread per bobbin (7 x 144 bobbins = 1,008 less yards per box), but what the hey. I still remove one of the cardboard sides (habit), but I have had little or no gunk residue with these bobbins and they work great. I'm sold!

I've had a box of the Fil-Tec Magna-Glide bobbins for 2 years now and looking at the empty cores I put in the box, I've used less than 5. Despite the claims, I've had more thread breaks with these bobbins, and they are more expensive. They don't seem to work well with a variety of threads. However, my technician swears by them and put one in my bobbin case. After it was out, I readjusted the bobbin tension and replaced it with an Allstitch bobbin.

Cheers,
Ed "Kanga" Roux

[Laughing Palm]

Ed,

It's interesting that you didn't like the Magna Glide bobbins, as I have found them to be great! I'm wondering if it's the bobbin tension that makes a difference?

I have found that using Rayon threads requires a slower stitching speed to help reduce the thread breaks/shredding that seem to accompany the use of Rayon thread. I think I'll try adjusting the bobbin tension way down and see how that works!

When you set the bobbin tension very low, I'm curious about these aspects:

1.) Does the stitching end up very loose on the garments?

2.) Does the bobbin thread end up being pulled upwards towards the top of the design since it's so loose?

3.) Do you always use a 75/11 needle, or does the use of a different size needle make any difference? (We usually end up using 70/10 for most work.)

4.) Have you found any difference in performance with different thread brands?

Thanks,

[edr]

Hi Jim,

I don't have any problems with stitching at speeds up to 1,500 spm (average 1,300 spm) with Madeira Rayon. There is no difference in stitch quality whether I slow the speed down to a maximum of 1,200 spm or 1,500 spm. However, as you know, the Amaya OS is smart enough to know when to slow or speed stitching up. If it can stitch at 1,500 spm for running stitches it will. However, when you stitch at these speeds, make sure everything on your Amaya is sufficiently lubricated. I never wait for the maintenance timers to prompt me to oil something. I usually oil my bobbin hook at every other bobbin change. I perform the 2,000,000 and 4,000,000 Lubrication Maintenance once a week when I run the Amaya XT 12-18 hours every day. It is better to err on the slightly over lubrication side than under lubrication.

In response to your questions:

1) No, the stitches are consistently tight and perfect. The tension of the top threads is controlled in Amaya OS Thread Feed, Material Thickness, etc. If I could upload pictures of some of my projects on this list that I have done with these varieties of threads, you would be impressed. I think I mentioned, that when Brad Costan, my Amaya technician, saw some of my work, he was in awe and was very impressed. His comments were that if he hadn't seen my work in person and I had told him I was doing these things over the phone, he would have thought I was full of bull. He said that in all his years of servicing Amaya XTs (he is the only one for California, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico I think he told me), he has never seen anyone do the things that I do with my Amaya XT. If someone is skeptical about my claims, I invite them to ask Brad themselves.

I bought and use my Amaya XT for a hobby. I did not buy it to stitch out hats, T-shirts, jackets, etc., like the majority of Amaya XT owners use it for. I push my Amaya XT to the limits. Melco claims it can do these things and I have it live up to its name. Brad says that he tells his customers to settle down on using one type of thread on the same size spools for all sixteen needles. Life's too short for me. I can have as many as six different thread types loaded for a job on my Amaya. It works for me!

2) No, the bobbin thread does not show on the design. Stitches are perfectly balanced.

3) I always use a 75/11 Organ Titanium needle for Isacord, Madeira Rayon, Mettler Metrosene Plus and other similarly weight thread. For heavier weight thread (thicker than 40 wt.) I use 80/12 to 110/18 Organ Titanium needles, depending on weight of thread. If you want to use a variety of threads, you need to have a variety of needles.

4) Yes, I learned that stacked-wound thread does not feed as well as cross-wound thread (as in Isacord, Madeira). For the few spools that I have used that are stacked-wound, I would manually unwind the spool to the side before it enters the thread posts. Thread has to have little or no resistance when being unwound from the cone before passing through the cone posts.

Not all thread cones of the same type of thread will exactly perform the same. For one particular cone of Superior Thread Perfect Quilter Cotton 17 wt. which I used a 100/16 needle for, there was some resistance when it unwound from the cross-wound cone. I needed to manually unwind it as it was passing through the cone posts to avoid thread breaks. But, the prior cone of the same thread that I used stitched out at 1,500 spm with little or no thread breaks without me having to manually unwind it.

I've learned from experience what the root causes for thread breaks could be and how to rectify them. I've gotten pretty good at it. Some of the things I consider are:

1. Needle Eye Position. The loop of the top thread while it is in the bobbin area that is formed behind the needle scarf is partly controlled by the needle eye position. The loop behind the needle scarf has to be large enough for the hook to catch it. That is why Melco recommends that you install your needles at the 5 degree orientation. Start with that, but you may have to adjust the orientation from anywhere to -2 degrees to 8 degrees depending on the type of thread you are using and how tightly your thread is wound and the resulting curl (i.e., cones with a narrow core generally have more of a curl, increasing toward the core of the spool, than thread from a mini-king spool or king spool). The Needle Eye Position compensates for that "curl" if there is one, by increasing or decreasing the size of the loop behind the needle scarf. For example, for the Mettler Metrosene Plus on the narrow spools, I orient my needles at 0-1 degrees to maximize the loop for the hook. When Brad examined each of the needles I was using Mettler Metrosene Plus on, he said that the majority of the 12 needles were at 0 degree orientation. That works for this thread stitching at up to 1,500 spm.

2. Bobbin Tension. If it is too tight, it will cut the top thread like a knife no matter how slow you stitch.

3. Quality of thread. If it is bad thread, throw it away! It is not worth your time to constantly stop and rethread.

4. Thread Feed. Make sure there is no resistance when the thread is unwound from the thread cones.

5. Thread Path. Make sure the thread paths of the top and especially the bobbin case and hook area are clean, clean and clean. I keep a hand-held vacuum with one of those computer keyboard attachments to clean the hook area of debris. A business card is always close at hand to clear the gunk that may accumulate under the bobbin tension plate.

6. Proper Lubrication. Make sure the red thread rollers have sufficient lubrication. If they are dry, you'll have thread wrap around them and have other thread breakage problems.

7. Needles. Always stitch with sharp, perfectly straight needles. If they are dull or bent, you are asking for trouble. When in doubt, change it. They are cheap and certainly the cheapest part of this equation!

8. Use quality and the proper type of backing for your projects and hoop them tautly. The techniques for proper hooping is another area.

Hmmm, I wonder if there is anything I missed.

Cheers,
Ed "Kanga" Roux

[ April 07, 2011, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: edr ]

[edr]

I made some slight corrections to my previous post....check version on the amayausers.com.

Cheers,
Ed "Kanga" Roux

[MJ]

Wow!
Lots of valuable info!
How are you able to be so specific with needle orientation? How the heck do you know if it's 1% or 5%?
Loosening the bobbin did work for me using the rayon top thread, thanks!
Thanks! I'm soaking up all the tips like a sponge!
MJ, Everything Embroidered

[edr]

Hi MJ,

You are welcome. I'm glad what I have learned on my "one" Amaya XT also works for you on yours. I say "one" Amaya XT, as what works for me on mine may not be true for others with their Amaya XT. I wouldn't know as I've never worked on any other Amaya, except for only 2 days at the very beginning in class when I didn't know anything. If I only had the room for another Amaya XT, I'd buy another one in a pinch. I could have easily used two Amayas for the project I am currently working on.

As for how I know how to orient my needles, it is primarily experience through trial and error with thread breaks. When I get next to none, then I've hit that mysterious "magic" setting.

Cheers,
Ed "Kanga" Roux

[MJ]

Hi Ed!
You sound a lot like me -- I always like to push and challenge myself to learn new things!

I'm still getting adjusted to the Amaya way of doing things -- it's so numerical! I'm always so busy with orders, that I don't get to play around with DS and AOS enough -- I have thousands of designs I made in PE Design which I use all the time. So whenever I can, I try to use Designshop to learn all the features!
Thanks again! I learn so much from reading everyone's posts!